- Nickel considers the last elections in Poland to be historically important and represent a turning point comparable to the 1989 coup.
- The expert observed the increasing spread of anti-German propaganda and the rise of hatred in state-controlled media, which resulted in a slight decline in approval of Germany in Poland.
- Nickel emphasized the important role of civil society in strengthening Polish-German relations
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Clara Hoheisel: Mr. Nickel, as a diplomat you have worked in many countries. If you look back on your time as ambassador to Poland, are there any particular encounters or situations that stick in your mind and shape your understanding of Polish-German relations?
Rolf Nickel: There were many meetings and moments that shaped my perception of Poland. In my book “Enemies, Strangers, Friends. Poland and Germany” I describe this experience in detail. A very important moment for me was meeting Holocaust survivors. These meetings resulted in several friendships, which contrasted sharply with public comments that portrayed the relationship in a negative light. There were moving moments that sharpened my understanding of Poland in terms of what matters most to its people.
“The election, from my point of view, is the most important election in Poland since 1989.”
On October 15, Polish citizens elected a new parliament. The election results are eagerly awaited. Do you think this election is as important as the Brexit vote?
From my point of view, this election is the most important election in Poland since the transformation in 1989. In addition, this election is also the most important election in Europe this year. The result means a breath of fresh, European spring air in mid-October. While I do not underestimate the upcoming challenges in Poland’s relations with Germany and Europe, I am convinced that the election results have created opportunities for the development of European and Polish-German relations.
What political initiatives do you expect from the new government? The coalition agreement doesn’t reveal much.
It is true, the 13-page coalition agreement is general in nature. By comparison, the German coalition agreement is 177 pages long. This reflects the current challenges in aligning various aspects of the alliance. However, I believe there is a new impetus in politics. I hope Polish-German relations will improve. I’m optimistic that at least the situation will improve. But this does not mean that all problems in Polish-German relations or in Poland’s relations with Europe will magically disappear.
At the beginning of the interview, you mentioned that your book “Enemies, Strangers, Friends. Poland and Germany” is now available in Polish. What kind of response have you received from Poland?
I presented the book at various events in Warsaw, Krakow, Opole and Gdańsk. I received a very positive reaction. The book is comprehensive, combining autobiography, anecdotes and analysis of my experiences in Poland. In addition, I exposed shortcomings on the German side, such as failures in Germany’s eastern policy and energy security policy. We need to introspect, admit the mistakes we have made and consider what we must do to develop Europe – especially considering the many crises occurring around us, from the crisis in Ukraine to the crisis in the Middle East.
“Polish-German relations are much better than their reputation”
To what extent did you experience anti-German rhetoric from the ruling party during your stay in Poland?
Overall, Polish-German relations are in good condition, mainly because the two basic pillars of relations – civil society cooperation and economic cooperation – are functioning well. Polish-German relations are much better than their reputation suggests. However, it is true: anti-German propaganda in the state-controlled media caused difficulties. According to the Polish-German Barometer, support for Germany has declined in recent years. Although still very positive, the figure once exceeded 70%. Currently, support is just under 50 percent.
How was anti-German sentiment reflected in everyday life?
During my six years as ambassador, I traveled extensively throughout the country and personally never experienced any mistreatment due to my role as ambassador to Germany. We have many friends and are always warmly welcomed in all corners of the country. We are simply bombarded by propaganda from state-controlled media or right-wing groups. But this is the view. Diplomats must address this.
In this propaganda, PiS frequently refers to Germany’s past and emphasizes that Poland’s suffering and sacrifices during World War II were not adequately compensated. Is this criticism justified? Did the Germans know little about what they were doing to Poland?
A distinction needs to be made here. On the one hand, there is undoubtedly moral responsibility for what happened at German hands and in Germany’s name during World War II. There is no doubt about it. Poland was the first victim of Nazi terror and suffered greatly under German occupation.
On the other hand, there are legal regulations and the fact that compensation claims are legally closed for various reasons. Despite these legal aspects, I believe it is important for Germany to remain committed to voluntary humanitarian action and action. This has happened before, for example in 1991 with the Polish-German Reconciliation Foundation, compensation for forced laborers in 2003/2004, and during my ambassadorship in 2014, the signing of the so-called ghetto pension agreement.
There have been voluntary financial contributions in the past and I believe similar measures should be considered further. Additionally, in October 2020, the German Bundestag authorized the establishment of a place of remembrance and meeting with Poland: the Polish-German House. This project must be implemented immediately.
Another accusation from the Polish side was that Germans often behaved paternalistically towards Poles. What is behind this perception?
There is a certain challenge of asymmetry in our relationship. Germany is the economically strongest and most populous country in Europe. Therefore, it is necessary to think about how to respond to these objective facts subjectively. In the past, there were times when some of us behaved arrogantly in various ways.
We believe that our experience makes us know better in many ways. Now we realize that, for example, Poland was correct in its assessment of the situation in the East. In contrast, Germany has made serious mistakes in its eastern policy and energy security policy. This results in certain changes in perception.
In addition, due to the conflict in Ukraine, the geographic focus shifted to the East. NATO is moving north, placing more troops on its eastern flank. Time will tell if this will truly increase its power and influence. Nevertheless, together we are stronger. A power struggle in the east, as some PiS politicians predict, is not the right path. Together we can better face today’s challenges, in each country in its own way. Germany could certainly use more self-criticism.
The problem is that Poles know more about Germany than vice versa.
What stereotypes do Germans have about Poles?
The problem is that Poles know more about Germany than vice versa. Too few Germans travel to Poland. That’s why these stereotypes still exist. However, there are stereotypes that have changed in recent years. For example, the perception of the Polish economy: for decades, even centuries, it was associated with the belief that Poland was economically unviable. Today, thanks to the dynamic development of the Polish economy over the last 30 years, this perception has been reversed. Today, the Polish economy represents dynamism and growth.
Why are most Germans still unfamiliar with Poland, even though many Germans have personal connections to the country?
German policy was Western-oriented for many years until the fall of the Berlin Wall. Many don’t think about the East, even when traveling abroad. This is slowly changing. This is a process that still needs to be pursued. I can only encourage every German to visit Poland. The country is beautiful, with fantastic cultural scenes, thriving landscapes, and dynamic, friendly people. There are already first successes, looking at the number of Polish-German Youth Cooperation. Since 1991, this has enabled the exchange of 3 million German and Polish youth.
“Polish-German relations are based on intensive cooperation between civil society”
Therefore, civil society plays an important role in shaping Polish-German relations.
Appropriate. Polish-German relations are based on intensive cooperation between civil society, municipal partnerships, cooperation between universities, Polish-German society and so on. There’s a lot going on there, even on the other side of the border between the western provinces in Poland and the eastern states in Germany. This is the foundation upon which our economic relations and cooperation are based. I can only encourage everyone to contribute and build bridges between the two countries and their people.
What will relations between Poland and Germany look like in the future?
Now is the time, a window of opportunity for Germany and Poland to jointly address pressing problems. There is nothing worse in a world full of crises than fighting with each other, as has often happened in recent years. Current conditions are very supportive of overcoming this problem together.
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